Daemons Domain – All Souls Trilogy & Universe Fan Site + Podcast: Daemons Discuss – Podcast: Take 39! | Chapter Discussion about the All Souls Trilogy; Chapter 16 of Shadow of Night

19 Apr 2025

Description: After reveling in the knowledge of the expansion of their family, Matthew Clairmont considers what it will take to keep his wife occupied and happy in her new century. Prayer and physic alone won’t do it. It’s time for Diana to meet her new gal-pal, Mary. Longer commutes and thorough workouts will be easily be covered as we couldn’t keep quiet during this recording! 😂

SPOILER ALERT! We (The Daemons) approach this podcast with an assumption that the listener has read The All Souls Trilogy, including A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night, The Book of Life, and snippits from The World of All Souls. If you haven’t, and you don’t mind, we certainly don’t mind! 😊 Let’s do this. *Note – this podcast is labeled ‘explicit’

Listen:

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For newcomers to the series:– We’ll start with the basics: The books in discussion are A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night and The Book of Life. Together they make The All Souls Trilogy by Deborah Harkness.
– Our Daemon Guides to the All Souls Trilogy are available for download: ADOW, SON, TBOL

Deb’s newsletter – The Blast; subscribe on her website

– If you’d like a ready-reference from the author herself, be sure to download the All Souls Real-Time Reading companion (free e-book at online booksellers via Penguin and Headline books).
– Deborah Harkness usually conducts a real-time reading on her Facebook Page (starting in September), and shares her posts across social media. Check out her website for all of her social media links, and of course all that she has to offer her readers! Be sure to sign up for her newsletter while you are there!
– To see what’s available on the web as far as the All Souls universe fandom, check our links page.

In this episode:

* (01:20) – This podcast is brought to you by our Patrons! To become a patron all you need to do is visit us at Patreon.com/DaemonsDiscuss and become a member. See what level tier you’d like to join us! All tier levels will receive access to our exclusive Daemons Discuss! The Aftershow podcast.

* (02:12) – The World of All Souls (TWOAS) is out! We discuss the talk at the Seattle stop (May 8th, 2018), the first chapter of Time’s Convert etc.

* (06:25) – Baldwin-gate! According to Matthew in The Book of Life (TBOL), Baldwin was the one to acknowledge Philippe’s blood swearing of Diana, and in TWOAS, it’s stated that Verin was the one to do it. We are going with the source material, folks. The books in the trilogy is canon, and TWOAS is a companion book to the source. Meh. Mistakes happen!

Make Wendy’s weaver cords!

* (09:55) – Thank you Shannon & Lauren for your voice mails! Thank you Leslie for your Discusser email! Wendy’s weaver cord recipe (mentioned in Shannon’s voice mail) is located here: DIY project: Weaver’s Cords

* (16:36) – This chapter review is brought to you Teresa Morrow! Thank you, Teresa!

Chapter 16
* (16:50) – The Disagreement

The quiet weekend – We passed the weekend quietly, reveling in our secret and indulging in the speculations of all parents-to-be.
What?! They are leaving?! “We’re going back to Woodstock?” I asked, confused. “For a short time, perhaps. Then we’ll be going back to our present.” I stared at him, too startled to speak.
Bless the fathers for trying to be so helpful. We discuss hormone-fueled reactions here. We contend Deb had a deft hand in writing this exchange.
Matthew’s new dumb plan, and his favor to her. “We don’t know what to expect during the gestation period, and for your safety—and the child’s—we need to monitor the baby. There are tests to run, and it would be a good idea to have a baseline ultrasound. Besides, you’ll want to be with Sarah and Emily.”
Diana doesn’t know how to get them back! Did Matthew forget? “But, Matthew,” I protested, “we can’t go home yet. I don’t know how.” His head swung around. “Em explained it clearly before we left. To travel back in time, you need three objects to take you where you want to go. To travel forward you need witchcraft, but I can’t do spells. It’s why we came.
Diana is being the practical one here. “Women do have babies in the sixteenth century,” I said mildly. “Besides, I don’t feel any different. I can’t be more than a few weeks pregnant.”
Matthew’s spiral into a loop of crazy. “Will you be powerful enough to carry both her and me back to the future? No, we need to leave as soon as possible, and well before she’s born.” Matthew drew to a halt. “What if timewalking damages the fetus in some way? Magic is one thing, but this—” He sat down abruptly
This is where Sarah would’ve warned Matthew about this… “By six weeks all the most critical fetal developments will have taken place. That should give you plenty of time.” “And if I need seven?” Had Sarah been in the room, she would have warned him that my reasonableness was not a good sign.
Diana counters! “Oh, well, that’s good. I’d hate to feel rushed when it comes to something as important as figuring out who I am.” I strode toward him.
I’m not some vessel! “Don’t you dare say this isn’t good for the baby. I’m not some vessel.” My temper was at full boil now. “First it was my blood you wanted for your scientific experiments, and now it’s this baby
Diana’s spiral and Jean’s suggestion for every to “calm their tits!” New expression for Valerie and Angela!
“Well?” – Diana wants this fight! “Well what? Apparently my participation in this conversation isn’t required. You’re already finishing my sentences. You might as well start them, too.”
Ashmole 782 is brought up and he falls off of the cliff. The list… “Everything has changed, and you are not the same person. We can’t keep this pregnancy a secret indefinitely. In a matter of days, every vampire will be able to smell the changes in your body. Kit will figure it out soon after, and he’ll be asking about the father—because it can’t be me, can it? A pregnant witch living with a wearh will raise the animosity of every creature in this city, even the ones who don’t care much for the covenant. Someone could complain to the Congregation. My father will demand we go back to Sept-Tours for your safety, and I can’t endure saying good-bye to him one more time.”
Diana didn’t think about that. Angela says Matthew didn’t think about it either; he just came up with it on the fly (even though it was a good argument!)
Their unique situation: Before, you and I were in a forbidden marriage. That’s hardly unique. Now you’re carrying my child. That’s not only unique—other creatures believe it’s impossible.
Yikes! Matthew! “You might not be able to find a witch willing to help by then,” I persisted. “Not with what’s happening in Scotland.” “Who said anything about willingness?” Matthew’s smile chilled me.
We discuss Matthew and him going through the motions of studying law. Jean gives us her theory, here.
They go into their separate corners. “I will not lose you, Diana,” he said, emphatic but quiet. “Not to look for an alchemical manuscript and not for the sake of an unborn child.” “And I will not lose myself,” I retorted. “Not to satisfy your need for control. Not before I find out who I am.”

The Faerie Queen!

* (32:48) – The problem of entertaining Diana

She’s reading the Faerie Queen. AGAIN. We compared Diana reading through the Faerie Queen to being in a place where you have 1 channel, or you just have that 1 DVD because cable hasn’t come to your neighborhood yet.
Françoise should cook for us! “I’m famished. The stew Kit ordered for dinner was inedible. Matt said Françoise should make us something to eat.” Raleigh’s mischievous grin betrayed his lie.
Presents! And the mail is back. Matthew came home with Kit, an armful of books, and a full complement of facial hair courtesy of one of these wizard barbers I kept hearing about. My husband’s trim new mustache suited the width of his mouth, and his beard was fashionably small and well shaped. Pierre followed behind, bearing a linen sack of paper rectangles and squares.
Kit’s snark (we missed this a little bit) “Why do you persist in calling Matthew’s wife by her first name, Henry? Has Mistress Roydon become your ward? Is she your sister now? The only other explanation is that you are planning a seduction,” Marlowe grumbled, plunking himself down in a chair
Matthew’s belated Christmas presents: I have belated Christmas presents,” Matthew said, sliding his stack in my direction. “Books.”
Matthew’s new beard (and is everything cool now? Has all been forgiven? We’re guessing by the kiss it’s all good). We discuss the beard and Jean took a flying crash into the ditch! We need a tow truck.
Hal mentions the fact that this stuff isn’t gonna keep her entertained, and he brings up introducing her to Mary Sidney – The Earl of Northumberland eyed me as he would a piece of horseflesh in need of a training regimen. “These few titles will not keep Diana occupied for long. She is used to more varied activity.”
George would like to show Mary his Patreon page! “Ah, yes. The Countess of Pembroke,” George said, eyes gleaming at the prospect of patronage.
Walter also has a Patreon page. He suggests having Mary over. “Nor is Mary Sidney ready for you, Mistress Roydon, but I suspect that Henry is right. You will soon grow tired of Matthew’s friends and need to seek your own. Without them you will be prone to idleness and melancholy.” Walter nodded to Matthew. “You should invite Mary here to share supper.”
Kit suggests tossing Diana over the wall … weeeell, not exactly. “The Blackfriars would come to a complete standstill if the Countess of Pembroke appeared on Water Lane. It would be far better to send Mistress Roydon to Baynard’s Castle. It’s just over the wall,” Marlowe said, eager to be rid of me.
Hal offers to write to Mary. “Shall I write to her, then, Matt?” Henry inquired. “Thank you, Hal.” Matthew was clearly unconvinced of the merits of the plan. Then he sighed. “It’s been too long since I’ve seen her. Tell Mary we’ll call on her tomorrow.”

In the background is the little sketch of Mary’s portrait in The World of All Souls. In the lower right corner is Hilliard’s

* (43:54) – Let’s go to Baynard’s Castle!

Diana has cabin fever and is sort of excited to meet the Mary Sidney. My initial reluctance to meet Mary Sidney faded as our rendezvous approached. The more I remembered—and discovered—about the Countess of Pembroke, the more excited I became.
In Latin please! “If you’re trying to infuriate me, you’re succeeding!” I told him after a particularly convoluted question. “Refero mihi in latine, quaeso,” Matthew said in a professorial tone. When I threw a hunk of bread at him, he laughed and ducked.
We love Hal! Henry Percy arrived just in time to catch the bread neatly with one hand. He returned it to the table without comment, smiled serenely, and asked if we were ready to depart.
It’s not that stinky. I breathed deeply, making a mental note to stop telling my students that if you went back in time, you would be knocked over instantly by the foul smell. Apparently that wasn’t true, at least not in late December.
Matthew and Henry are acknowledged by many people in this place and time. Men and women looked up from their work and out their windows with unabashed curiosity as we passed, bobbing their heads respectfully when they recognized Matthew and Henry.
F*ck it, we’ll go through the churchyard. Matthew looked up at St. Paul’s and then down at me. His face softened. “To hell with caution. Come on.”
The coded warning. “We’ve caught someone’s attention,” I said. Matthew didn’t seem overly concerned as he scanned the nearby faces. “Someone like me. Someone like Kit. No one like you.”
The scenic route. “Baynard’s Castle was built to be approached from the river, Diana,” Henry said in an apologetic tone as we traveled down another winding lane. “This is the back entrance, and not how visitors are supposed to arrive—but it is a great deal warmer on a day like this.”
Nicholas Hilliard – “Hilliard!” Matthew said, his delight evident. “What brings you here?” “A commission for Lady Pembroke,” the man said, waving his palette. “I must put the finishing touches on this miniature. She wishes to have it for a gift at the New Year.” His bright brown eyes studied me.
This is Matthew’s element! This time and place is where he thrived with his family of choice.
Relax, Diana. This is going to be a casual relationship. “Mistress Roydon,” she said, her eyes snapping with amusement. “Now that that’s over with, let us be plain Mary and Diana. Henry tells me that you are a student of alchemy.
Diana studies alchemy, so do you wanna be her friend? Matthew took my hand in his. “And you are too modest. She knows a vast amount, Mary. As Diana is new to London, Hal thought you might help her find her way in the city.”
The comfits – as promised, we put a recipe below!
They talk about Mary’s family and the statue of William Herbert occurs to her. Mary’s words reminded me of the statue of William Herbert in the Bodleian Library quadrangle. The man I passed on the way to Duke Humfrey’s every day, and one of the library’s greatest benefactors, was this woman’s young son.
The ague is back! The countess’s face softened. “William is ten, and Philip is just six. My daughter, Anne, is seven but she has been ill this past month, and my husband felt she should remain at Wilton.”
The implication that women don’t have say in their fate. “Her father and mother died when she was young. There was no one to arrange it.” Mary’s sympathy increased. “A young girl’s life is sadly dependent upon the whims of her guardians.”
Diana zones out and focuses on Mary’s shoes. Uh oh. Her feet twinkled in the firelight, the silver embroidery on her richly colored slippers picking up hints of red, orange, and gold. I wondered idly who had designed the intricate pattern for the embroidery. Had I been closer, I would have asked to touch the stitches. Champier had been able to read my flesh with his fingers. Could an inanimate object provide similar information?
The strange bee. So Mary is interested in plants and insects, as well as alchemy, I thought, searching her shoes for the grasshopper. There it was, on the heel. So lifelike. And the bee on her right toe looked as though it might fly away at any moment. A faint buzzing filled my ears as the silver-and-black bee detached itself from the Countess of Pembroke’s shoe and took to the air. “Oh, no,” I gasped. “What a strange bee,” Henry commented, swatting at it as it flew past.
Jean brings up Eden and Mary’s shoes.
Mary, y’know any witches? “It’s all right, mon coeur. You cannot help it.” Matthew touched my cheek before he looked at the countess, who was staring down at her mismatching slippers. “We need a witch, Mary. There is some urgency.”
Yeah, Mary…we gotta go. I have to protect my wife. “Why, when you see the truth about creatures like Diana and me every day and still deny it?” Matthew sounded weary. He stood. “We will not trouble you again, Mary. Diana will find a witch some other way.” “Why can we not go on as we have before and speak no more about this?” The countess looked at me and bit her lip, uncertainty in her eyes. “Because I love my wife and want to see her safe.”
Sorry about your shoes! Bygones! “I’m so sorry about your shoes,” I said awkwardly. They would never be the same.
That didn’t go so badly! “That went very well, I think,” Henry said, breaking the silence. We turned on him in disbelief
If Diana noticed her tapestries, perhaps it would’ve been worse. “Thank God you were thinking about Mary’s shoes. If you’d been examining her tapestries, we would have found ourselves in the midst of a war between the gods on Mount Olympus,” he said drily.

Psalm 71

* (1:00:25) – Chilling minus Netflix

A message/invitation from Mary: “What does Mary say?” Matthew asked after dismissing the messengers. He stood behind me and rested his hands on my shoulders. “She wants me to come to Baynard’s Castle on Thursday. Mary has an alchemical experiment under way that she thinks might interest me.” I couldn’t keep the incredulity out of my voice.
Mary has sent Diana a friend request! “Yea, when all me so misdeemed, I to most a monster seemed, Yet in thee my hope was strong.” “Well, well, well,” Matthew interrupted with a chuckle. “My wife has arrived.”
You’re being watched. There was more to this gift from Mary than a simple offer of friendship, of that I was certain. While the lines I’d read aloud to Matthew were an acknowledgment of his service to her family and a declaration that she would not turn away from him now, the final lines held a message for me: We were being watched.
Annnnnnnnd scene! I pulled a sheet of paper toward me and began to make a list. Sealing Waxe A Signet London was a big city. And I was going to do some shopping.

* (1:03:29) Housekeeping! Brought to you by Jody Kozey! Thank you Shell and Aly! Thank you GinMonster for your 5 star Apple Podcast review!

* (1:11:40) Save It For the Show – brought to you by Ruth Ticknor! Topic: Our Daemon tips on surviving the up coming deluge of series news …. Don’t overwhelm yourself, find a few good sources and bookmark our site!

* (1:16:54) Promo break – scroll down, or click here to get a hold of us and/or become a Discusser — information on joining our Facebook group also located on that page. Those of you with US numbers can text ADOW to 444999 to become a Discusser.

* (1:18:10) – Our collective last thought: The Pink News article. We discuss the “controversy” over this headline. We don’t think it’s controversial, however were concerned that the conversation turned into a display of hand-wringing, and people viscerally uncomfortable with the word “lesbian” being used. The original article was aimed at the LBGTQ community, however mainstream outlets picked it up, and many people (who are not in the know) made WRONG assumptions about the show in general. The headline tended to change the focus from the description of the show to the fact that there were indeed lesbians included, which should be neither here nor there as far as the overall storyline of the show — especially to creatures in this fandom. However, highlighting it to the LBGTQ community (the purpose of the original article) makes sense, and it should be celebrated in that context!

Angela’s letter board!

Angela mentioned her letter board being the conversation starter for the podcast convo with her mom ^ there it is! See post

The Time Machine Cuisine post Angela was talking about re: candied citrus peel …

Today is candied orange peel day. Preserving fruit in palm sugar has been around since antiquity for the purpose of extending its shelf life. #Poldark fans can catch a glimpse of tasty treat on the manor tables. You can also find a recipe in my new Poldark cookbook #foodhistory pic.twitter.com/dN8mIaeutK — ThymeMachine Cuisine (@ThymeCuisine) May 4, 2018

The recipe that Valerie was talking about:

Candied Citrus Peel – Find it here: How to Make Candied Citrus Peel.

All Souls Con 2018

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